Curse

Shayne Hawke · Jun 10, 2009, 02:02 PM // 14:02

I fail to see anywhere in my explanation of anything that I was trying to kill farming and improve PuGs.

EPO Bot · Jun 10, 2009, 02:17 PM // 14:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Back then

I think anyone supporting this idea and the OP especially are the same people who form 8 man groups just to run out to Nicholas each week. In other words, people who need their hand held and hate the idea that other people can accomplish the same things as them, solo and in less time.

l2farm or go play the game. Stop trying to ruin other people's game because you can't do what they do. Farming hurts no one, if you nerf farming those people still aren't going to join your group, they'll just reject your invite spam and grab their heroes and still get through things faster then you. Pugs are dead, join a guild or deal with it.

Am i reading this wrong or are you saying wikiing a farm build and using it to get FoW armor in a week is something that requires skill? FoW armor is the most common skin in the game wile it was supposed to be rare once. I don't get why Anet allowed solo farm builds to exist for so long. They are totally against the spirit of the game.

Tenebrae · Jun 10, 2009, 02:49 PM // 14:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shayne Hawke

You absolutely must have missed something in this thread. Please go back and re-read.

No i havent , but you had ; you said :

"The point is indeed to get rid of 600/Smite, for two reasons:

- These teams have become farming/running giants, being able to clear nearly every dungeon, and a few high end areas.
- They're used as a base in the two fastest faction farms for each of the allegiance titles. Removing them would encourage players to go to the PvP arenas for these titles and hopefully stir up more competitive play there."

Those 2 skills you mention are used in .... a LITTLE more things than those 2 you mentioned. Your thread is some mix of
- "nah , i dont like fox terriers , lets kill ALL DOGS in the planet" and
- "I dont like that thing , so it should be nerfed"

When the reason comes after the "solution" it seems more like an excuse to me . Soz dude , maybe you think im wrong but im not changing my opinion

Ebony Shadowheart · Jun 10, 2009, 02:55 PM // 14:55

I don't feel that 600/smite or 55s need to be nerfed.

There is always going to be farming, and running, etc etc that someone isn't going to like.

/notsigned

Shayne Hawke · Jun 10, 2009, 03:19 PM // 15:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tenebrae

- "nah , i dont like fox terriers , lets kill ALL DOGS in the planet" and
- "I dont like that thing , so it should be nerfed"

I don't understand how your first analogy applies to this at all, but with saying that this is a nerf can only come from a person that would see these skills solely in the purpose of farming. Let me spell this out for you:

- Protective Spirit will be buffed for anyone that goes around in PvE with more than 485 health.
- Spirit Bond will be buffed for anyone that goes around in PvE with less than 606 health.
- The two can no longer be used in conjunction effectively to produce the same results as now, that being teams of two or three that can plow through high-end areas with relatively greater speed and ease.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ebony Shadowheart

There is always going to be farming, and running, etc etc that someone isn't going to like.

I have no intentions of saying, "Hey, let's just get rid of farming and running altogether," because that's not realistic, and wouldn't be good for the game. However, I don't see it good for the game either when these elite areas are being finished with low time investment and/or little effort and the reason for that is all because of one or two skills.

Xenomortis · Jun 10, 2009, 03:27 PM // 15:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shayne Hawke

- The two can no longer be used in conjunction effectively to produce the same results as now, that being teams of two or three that can plow through high-end areas with relatively greater speed and ease.

Your suggestions don't actually imply that.
Spirit Bond currently triggers before any damage reduction is taken into account. Your suggestions include no change to that.

Really, all your suggestions definitly imply is that 55 monks will be destroyed.

It's clear that you want 600s gone, but 600s are not a unique or special problem.

Verene · Jun 10, 2009, 03:32 PM // 15:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by EPO Bot

Am i reading this wrong or are you saying wikiing a farm build and using it to get FoW armor in a week is something that requires skill? FoW armor is the most common skin in the game wile it was supposed to be rare once. I don't get why Anet allowed solo farm builds to exist for so long. They are totally against the spirit of the game.

There's a specific way the game is meant to be played? News to me.

I really don't know how people soloing harms the game or anyone else. If you're collecting a specific thing, would you rather go out with a full team and spend hours and hours trying to get it, or would you rather do it alone and have what you need in a fraction of the time?

(I say this as someone who doesn't do more than the most basic farming, btw, and doesn't have a 55 monk nor a permasin)

Also, I really doubt FoW is the most common armor skin in the game. Considering I only see someone with it a few times a week.

Ebony Shadowheart · Jun 10, 2009, 03:32 PM // 15:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shayne Hawke

I have no intentions of saying, "Hey, let's just get rid of farming and running altogether," because that's not realistic, and wouldn't be good for the game. However, I don't see it good for the game either when these elite areas are being finished with low time investment and/or little effort and the reason for that is all because of one or two skills.

You are always going to have some type of gimmick for getting through something quickly.

Have you looked at PvP....ever? Gimmicks galore. Blood spike, death spike, ranger spike, and w/e else they are running these days.

UW speed clear, Fow Speed Clear, DOA Speed Clear, FFF, dungeon runs......blah blah blah.

Nerfing 55s and 600s will just have them come up with a new gimmick. It won't slow them down for more than a couple days at most.

So what's the point? If you're not against farming or running, then why suggest something that really isn't going to make a difference because they will just use something else to achieve the same goal?

For those of us that don't join the speed clears and the running, etc, but use the builds for some 'normal' (not hardcore) farming, how is that fair to us?

If you want the elite areas and dungeons non-runnable, or not gimmick-susceptible, why not ask to have those areas adjusted? Although honestly, you're never going to have an area that is completely gimmick proof. Just as Anet has never been able to successfully shut down the run from Beacons to Droks. It just won't happen.

glacialphoenix · Jun 10, 2009, 03:44 PM // 15:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Verene

Also, I really doubt FoW is the most common armor skin in the game. Considering I only see someone with it a few times a week.

Oh, you lucky, lucky person... I keep running into the Ninja Monk Army. You know, black FoW + Chaos Gloves + Mo Zing Mask.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ebony Shadowheart

Nerfing 55s and 600s will just have them come up with a new gimmick. It won't slow them down for more than a couple days at most.

So what's the point? If you're not against farming or running, then why suggest something that really isn't going to make a difference because they will just use something else to achieve the same goal?

For those of us that don't join the speed clears and the running, etc, but use the builds for some 'normal' (not hardcore) farming, how is that fair to us?

This. Especially with things like Nicholas the Traveller around, which practically requires farming if you want the gifts. I don't see how someone permasin or 600/smite to grab 10 dessicated hydra claws or 10 margonite masks is really an issue to you. Like Ebony says, if the worry is about certain elite areas, it's a lot fairer to change the areas than shut down the build, because shutting down the build only means people will switch to another gimmick.

And frankly, I'd much much rather that gimmick be PS/SB than a PvE-only skill.

EPO Bot · Jun 10, 2009, 03:45 PM // 15:45

[QUOTE=Verene;4680689]There's a specific way the game is meant to be played? News to me.QUOTE]

Yeah. MULTI player. No class can beat the game on it's own, but the game cannot be won without it either. That was the original core concept for both PVE and PVP: Wanna win? Get a good party!

Well, i guess most of the game still requires that teamwork. So whatever.

Longasc · Jun 10, 2009, 03:57 PM // 15:57

600/Smite, 55, Permasins are just crap.

Stuff like this should have been removed the moment these builds were starting to get used. This is especially true for the original 55 HP Monk. They just did not get it, they introduced Spirit Bond and we got an even better farmer with the "600" Monk.

I doubt they will do much about it, but these builds are no longer just used for farming in a few specific areas or bosses, they work almost everywhere.

Lessons for GW2?

No more % health damage limiters or > % health heal spells. No permanent invincibility builds/skills. But also no more bosses or mobs that 2-shot players.

Verene · Jun 10, 2009, 03:59 PM // 15:59

Quote:

Oh, you lucky, lucky person... I keep running into the Ninja Monk Army. You know, black FoW + Chaos Gloves + Mo Zing Mask.

Heh! I've never actually seen that once in the game. FoW monks, yes. But generally the ones I see are female and lacking the ninja mask and glow-worm gloves :P

Quote:

Yeah. MULTI player. No class can beat the game on it's own, but the game cannot be won without it either. That was the original core concept for both PVE and PVP: Wanna win? Get a good party!

Well, i guess most of the game still requires that teamwork. So whatever.

Solo-farming and running dungeons isn't going to beat the game for you. The majority of the game is still going to require you to party with others, whether H/H or actual people.

ele pl · Jun 10, 2009, 04:17 PM // 16:17

I see many people would like to nerf 600/smite due to the Mqsc and dsc. It is bad idea. They will find another build and another place to farm. What should be done? Increase rewards for pvp faction arenas (mostly AB), so they are competitive with fff.

Shadowhaze · Jun 10, 2009, 04:22 PM // 16:22

Oh please no...no more fow monks w/glow gloves and ninja masks...I see them everywhere. Bleh. (And no, I'm not jealous. lol. I just think that armor is really, really ugly. No offense to those who have it.

)

In the end, we're all at the mercy of Anet really. lol.

I can totally understand the annoyance of farm/running builds. But to nerf only one type of skill set/prof and not the others wouldnn't be very good. If they nerf solo/duo builds, they'd better nerf them all or none.

I do 55/600 or farm on another char sometimes to pass the time, if I'm just bored, or if I need some extra moola for some reason. I don't do it 24-7 like some people seem to (and I don't bring people with me the majority of the time. I just do it for myself.).

And after doing dungeons on so many chars it does get a bit monotonous, so it is nice to have an option to get a run.

But anyway, no matter what gets nerfed, people will always find another gimmick/way to do things. It's just the way things are.

Hailey Anne · Jun 10, 2009, 04:31 PM // 16:31

[QUOTE=EPO Bot;4680708]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Verene

There's a specific way the game is meant to be played? News to me.QUOTE]

Yeah. MULTI player. No class can beat the game on it's own, but the game cannot be won without it either. That was the original core concept for both PVE and PVP: Wanna win? Get a good party!

Well, i guess most of the game still requires that teamwork. So whatever.

This game hasnt really been multi player since heroes came.
Most of the game requires no teamwork at all just requires H/H.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ajc2123

Sorry but I don't want anymore people in PvP factions areas. Long enough wait as it is to get into a fight now, DTSC is my only salvation.

IF however Anet decides to buy more server space for more battles at the same time with all their microtransaction money and does something about leachers, Then YES I'm fine with this change.

Don't think it will affect my prot monk too much...might make it better.

Has nothing to do with server space, its lack of people, this suggestion however would not help this.
People MAY go do AB/JQ/FA but do you really want people that know nothing about them in there trying to get faction because they killed PS and sb.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkGanni

So basically you want to nerf 600/smite and 55 just so players play the way YOU want? Sorry if I'm rude but you're an idiot. Who the hell are you to say how players should get their titles?

^ this.
I get tired of people trying to dictate how the game should be played.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shayne Hawke

I believe that there's a reason that most dungeons aren't run by or don't use a permasin. They simply can't. A great number of the dungeons that are currently run by 600/Smite have too many dangers present in them to prevent a permasin from totally getting through it, and at a reasonable time. I don't think though that ANet would have any idea of nerfing PS or SB before they hit SF.

I run more dungeons with perma myself,
only ones I cant run in full are kath,ooze,ravens and HoS on sin.
the rest I can.

Ebony Shadowheart · Jun 10, 2009, 04:45 PM // 16:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Longasc

600/Smite, 55, Permasins are just crap.

Stuff like this should have been removed the moment these builds were starting to get used. This is especially true for the original 55 HP Monk. They just did not get it, they introduced Spirit Bond and we got an even better farmer with the "600" Monk.

I doubt they will do much about it, but these builds are no longer just used for farming in a few specific areas or bosses, they work almost everywhere.

Lessons for GW2?

No more % health damage limiters or > % health heal spells. No permanent invincibility builds/skills. But also no more bosses or mobs that 2-shot players.

Nerf the farming builds? You really want people to whine that there is nothing left to do after they have beaten the games? I mean, look at how they whine now; it'd only get louder.

Ok, so permasin and 600 are bad because they work everywhere? Well team builds work everywhere, so should we just not play? The argument that these are bad because they work everywhere isn't very strong considering you can build a team and that works everywhere. There will always be gimmicks, its unavoidable.

No more bosses or mobs that 2-shot players? Have you heard the whining that the game is too easy? Did you see that they made hard mode harder because of this? Remove this and the whine shall erupt again. You simple cannot please all the people all the time.

However, there is a simple fix. If you don't like it....then don't use it. No one is telling you how you have to play. Well, they're trying to, doesn't mean you have to listen.

Back then · Jun 10, 2009, 05:13 PM // 17:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by EPO Bot

Am i reading this wrong or are you saying wikiing a farm build and using it to get FoW armor in a week is something that requires skill? FoW armor is the most common skin in the game wile it was supposed to be rare once. I don't get why Anet allowed solo farm builds to exist for so long. They are totally against the spirit of the game.

Some farms do take skill actually, especially if you want to farm uncommon areas and need to come up with your own build. Also who said anything about FoW armor? I don't have any fow armor (because I dont like how any of them look, but i do have the mats if i so wished to craft a few sets) and thats not why I farm. I farm mainly for the challenge and for the fun. You live in a game world where people SC stuff in hard mode based on OP skills (SHADOW FORM NOT PROT SPIRIT) but I like to farm as a challenge. I remember trying to completely clear perdition rock on my war back in prophecies, not because i wanted to make 9999 moneis but for the fun and challenge of it.

How dare you tell people "thats not in the spirit of the game". Whining on a forum about stuff that has no effect on you isn't in the spirit of the game.

Yichi · Jun 10, 2009, 05:24 PM // 17:24

So you want to take one of the only balanced skills in the game and break it due to an imbalanced game mechanic...

/no

Sai Rith · Jun 10, 2009, 10:07 PM // 22:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shayne Hawke

fail

This. (12 chars)

Shayne Hawke · Jun 10, 2009, 11:13 PM // 23:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xenomortis

Your suggestions don't actually imply that.
Spirit Bond currently triggers before any damage reduction is taken into account. Your suggestions include no change to that.

After reading what you said and thinking it over, it seems that Spirit Bond doesn't need a change to its functionality at all, but moreso to its mechanics. Change it look at the damage post-reduction, and it works out. I'll edit my first post in a bit to point that out.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ebony Shadowheart

Nerfing 55s and 600s will just have them come up with a new gimmick. It won't slow them down for more than a couple days at most.

So what's the point? If you're not against farming or running, then why suggest something that really isn't going to make a difference because they will just use something else to achieve the same goal?

Okay, so you're saying that we shouldn't have pushed to get Ursan nerfed because people would just come up with something else?

Quote:

For those of us that don't join the speed clears and the running, etc, but use the builds for some 'normal' (not hardcore) farming, how is that fair to us?

With the number of options you have open to you with each profession in regards to what they can farm and how they can farm it, as well as the rewards that exist in beating certain areas, or completing certain goals, I'm not going to lose sleep over someone's favorite solo build getting nerfed if the potential offset is elimination of overabused speed farms.

Quote:

If you want the elite areas and dungeons non-runnable, or not gimmick-susceptible, why not ask to have those areas adjusted? Although honestly, you're never going to have an area that is completely gimmick proof. Just as Anet has never been able to successfully shut down the run from Beacons to Droks. It just won't happen.

No point suggesting something that can't be done. Before you fire that back at me, I'll say that my suggestion and everything else brought up in regards to changing SF and other imbalanced skills/builds is more something that ANet has refused to do or is resisting doing for one or more reasons, but is still plenty feasible.

Quote:

Originally Posted by glacialphoenix

Especially with things like Nicholas the Traveller around, which practically requires farming if you want the gifts. I don't see how someone permasin or 600/smite to grab 10 dessicated hydra claws or 10 margonite masks is really an issue to you.

Collector items are not that rare and difficult to obtain, so please do not make it seem so. I am really quite blown away by how you got the impression that I'm trying to prevent people from farming those.

Quote:

And frankly, I'd much much rather that gimmick be PS/SB than a PvE-only skill.

A fair argument, if it weren't for Spirit Bond having a PvP version, essentially making the one you're using in PvE similar to a PvE-only skill.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ele pl

I see many people would like to nerf 600/smite due to the Mqsc and dsc. It is bad idea. They will find another build and another place to farm. What should be done? Increase rewards for pvp faction arenas (mostly AB), so they are competitive with fff.

If you can come up with an efficient way of preventing botters and leechers from entering PvP arenas, I'll agree with you.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ebony Shadowheart

However, there is a simple fix. If you don't like it....then don't use it. No one is telling you how you have to play. Well, they're trying to, doesn't mean you have to listen.

Ignoring a problem or setting yourself apart from it is not a solution. Please go back and find every historical moment in GW where ANet failed to address something as fast as it should have on one reason or another and left an awful mark on GW by the time they responded.